Skip to main content

Episode 292 – Taking a Look at Testosterone – Part 2

In today’s episode of the ATP Project – The team delivers Part 2 of ‘Taking a Look at Testosterone’. In this segment, they cover the role of testosterone in women’s bodies, how it differs in function and conversion pathways. What happens when there is too much or not enough, how it changes as women age, and testing methods on what to look for. We hope you enjoyed the testosterone series.

Transcript:

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the ATP project. Delivering the irreverent truth about health, aging, performance and looking good. If you’re sick and tired of being sick and tired, ready to perform at your best, or somewhere in between, then sit back, relax and open your mind as Steve and Matt battle the status quo and discuss everything health related that can make you better.

Matt:

As always, this information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent, or cure any condition, and is for information purposes only. Please discuss any information in this podcast with your healthcare professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle. Stay tuned. The ATP project is about to start.

Elizma:

Welcome to the ATP podcast. You’re with our hosts, Steve, Matt and Elizma. [crosstalk 00:00:52]. We are talking this week about testosterone in females.

Steve:

Females?

Elizma:

That’s right. Oh my God. Let’s take it away. Where do we produce [crosstalk 00:01:05].

Matt:

You never thought of it that way, did you Steve?

Steve:

What? Female?

Matt:

[crosstalk 00:01:08] about how we introduce this. [crosstalk 00:01:11].

Elizma:

Let’s look at where testosterone is produced in females, right? Because females also produce some testosterone. It’s not just all about the males.

Matt:

It’s not the hormone that we’d normally, that the general public would associate with women. They’d normally think it’s testosterone makes a man and estrogen makes a woman. But the estrogen in women comes from testosterone, doesn’t it? How does it work? Tell us. Why is testosterone important for women?

Elizma:

Well, testosterone is important for women because it also has an effect on dopamine, [crosstalk 00:01:47].

Matt:

It’s the same hormone. Both men and women. We’ve got exactly the same hormones.

Elizma:

Yeah, although the testosterone is a lot lower in females than it is in males. And so generally it’s the ovaries can produce a little bit of testosterone and then the adrenals can do that as well, especially into menopause, and getting that testosterone up.

Matt:

Fat cells make testosterone. Or is it testosterone go to the fat cells and then get converted?

Steve:

Fat cells are made from lipoprotein, protein and fat.

Matt:

[crosstalk 00:02:18] talking about the chemical, sorry, the chemical adipokines, then  come out of adipocytes, and then we’ll include hormones in there. Testosterone is not made in the fat cell. It’s that it can be sent to a fat cell and converted into estrogen. [crosstalk 00:02:32].

Steve:

Yeah. Quite often. That’s a bad thing for aging, obese males, because if we’re fat, and a lot of middle aged men are overweight, and a lot of women are overweight too, and they make too much estrogen and have too little testosterone, so there’s major problems associated with that. You correctly pointed out that women make testosterone and there are a few conditions where women have too much testosterone as well, like PCOS.

Elizma:

PCOS, yeah. Polycystic ovarian syndrome, where there tends to be more androgens. I should say androgens because testosterone is not the only androgen, but generally when there’s an abundance of androgens, then that can create that PCOS syndrome where some women will get the cysts that form on the ovaries, although that’s not necessarily any more, I guess, need for being diagnosed with PCOS.

Matt:

Poly, meaning many?

Elizma:

Yes.

Matt:

And Cysts. And so the PCOS is a polycystic ovarian syndrome. It’s a syndrome with which includes multiple other symptoms. Only one of those symptoms is the cysts. The multiple cysts in the ovary?

Elizma:

That’s right. Yeah. Other symptoms could be acne because of the high amount of androgens. The hirsutism. Yeah, with hair like moustache in funny places. And then also the insulin resistance that often goes with PCOS as well.

Steve:

Hirsutism is a nasty one because it’s a hormone that stimulates testosterone production and in the oocytes which are the parts of the ovary, so they get a lot of insulin, and they get a lot of testosterone.

Matt:

We need to get back a step because we did that last episode, we talked about testosterone in men and that stuff, and how that interacts with everything. We talked a lot about the cascade of events that goes from the hypothalamus pituitary to the reproductive organ. I want to show that it’s the same in both men and women. We’ll go back and talk about the slight variations or differences that we do see.

Steve:

Last week we talked about LH and FSH that helps boost testosterone in men. Now, is that the same with women or what?

Matt:

What? No, no, it’s not. Well, it’s the steam engine, won’t it? Ended up being the fast train. Now… What? Yes. What we’re we talking about in the last week? It was this morning. [crosstalk 00:04:56]. Luteinizing hormone, tell us the process. I’ll do it then. Fucking hell, Steve. What’s wrong? The brain, pituitary gland will release luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone. The big difference that I need people to understand is in men, follicle stimulating hormone that affects the nuts, what? Sorry. [crosstalk 00:05:25]. That’s why he was laughing. Look how far apart they are. That is horrendous testicular separations. I know I put them right here with a microphone. It looks a bit better.

The nut, they have… Stop looking at my nuts like that, Steve. He just started staring [crosstalk 00:05:47]. Now, I don’t even know what he said. It was weird. Anyway, the nuts, when they get a follicle stimulating hormone, I’m not looking at Steve, and I can’t look at you. I’ll look at the cam. The nuts, when they get follicle stimulating hormone they make sperm and testosterone. What happens to your ovaries with follicle stimulating hormone?

Elizma:

Oh, you make estrogen.

Matt:

Yes. That’s very different. That’s one of the big difference, which is why when women use natural supplement that’s designed for a man to boost testosterone that works via enhancing follicle stimulating hormone, which is really important because so many women do this. They think, we talked about before, women have much lower levels of testosterone than men. We also know that testosterone improves recovery, it helps with the muscle mass, it helps with metabolism and all those things, so there’s a lot of women that would want that high level of testosterone to enhance sporting performance, physique, and it’s a useful tool.

However, if you use a natural compound like a shilajit, or a tribulus epimedium, I’m trying to think. There’s so many. Most of the classical herbs that just boost testosterone work by increasing follicle stimulating hormone in men. You’ll see in the studies, because I’ll always talk about sperm at the same time. That significantly increase in sperm and testosterone by follicle stimulating hormone. That same herb in a woman will mature the follicle and help support the first half of ovulation and will actually increase estrogen. And so for a woman using one of those natural compounds, when they’re throughout their menstrual cycle thinking they’re going to get the testosterone like their coach does, or the guy in the shop does, and that stuff, and that they claim that it really helps their recovery, and it really helps their performance, these women think I’m going to take the same male natural test boosters, it just does the opposite.

As I said, they need to understand that you can’t just do it that way. There are other things, for example, that have been studied in women. Things like Tongkat ali and fenugreek, they actually can enhance free testosterone by lowering that sex hormone binding globulin. Let’s quickly remind everyone what sex hormone binding globulin is and everything as well. The way it works, brain releases luteinizing hormone, follicle stimulating hormone in the first half of the menstrual cycle. That testosterone is being converted to estrogen because of the follicle stimulating hormone and it makes an egg and then that egg pops off. The little sack that’s left over, makes some progesterone once the luteinizing hormone comes out.

That’s pretty much how they regulate that menstrual cycle. Very crude, simplified version and that stuff. The hormones that are released through that process have a lot of functions in preparing the uterus and everything for implantation and fertilization and everything before they are eventually detoxified and cleared away. And then when all the hormones drop, when everything’s really low, is when the woman will have the menstrual cycle, and everything falls out. It’s just as simple as that.

Steve:

Everything falls out. That’s fair enough. That’s exactly right. We’ve got this testosterone here that plays this role in this hormonal cascade, which is all completely normal. We know LH and FSH do different things in men and women. That’s terrific. But we also have these conditions where women get too much testosterone.

Matt:

Sex hormone binding globulin. Tell us about that first.

Steve:

Sure.

Matt:

Because once the testosterone is released, we’ve got free and we’ve got bound, and it’s the sex hormone binding globulin.

Steve:

About 98%.

Matt:

That is a really important target when we’re looking at regulating hormones in women, because we can utilize sex hormone binding globulin because in some cases it’s really high, and it’s deactivating at all and in other cases, it’s really low. They got crazy amounts of testosterone. We do have herbal stuff that does manipulate that particular compound in women and starting in women.

Steve:

Flax seeds is a great one for boosting it. Yeah, it does. It’s quite a good one. Some of the flex seeds. If you’re having too much fat in your diet, especially if you want to increase your hormone load, then that’s a bad thing.

Matt:

Yeah. Right.

Steve:

And so, and a lot of those foods like that.

Elizma:

Because of the fat phytoestorogens.

Steve:

Yes. Because of the phytoestorgens. Yeah. That actually increases the sex hormone binding globulin production in the liver. Insulin gives you more free hormone, in this case, more free testosterone.

Matt:

Tell us about the PCOs then, Steve.

Steve:

Sure. PCOS is interesting, because that’s polycystic ovarian syndrome, as we’ve talked about, and it’s driven a lot by insulin. That means it comes back to diet and lifestyle a lot. If you’re having a high carbohydrate diet, and you’re not exercising enough, PCOS can be the result in women. About one in seven women have this. Too much insulin drives the oocytes in the ovaries to make more testosterone. And it also suppresses sex hormone binding globulin to again, increase free testosterone. They end up with too many androgens, they get a bit thick around the waist here, they get hirsutism you guys talked about before, they get the acne, and they get the high free androgen index. That can also drive a lot of other hormonal problems in women. Depression, all things. That’s when they have too much free testosterone floating in the body.

Matt:

And so, I’ll tell you something. In my naturopath clinic originally, because when you do naturopath study, they are always teaching you to start the diagnosis, or start your profiling as they’re walking through the door. Looking at body shapes and all that stuff. We knew what an estrogen dominant body shape would look like. What was crazy in the early days with the PCOS, they didn’t really know what was going on. And so, there was at one stage here talking about being estrogen dominance at one time and there was this testosterone it was just cyst or whatever infections and parasites. All these things were mentioned. Then the insulin stuff started getting noticed when they created those syndromes, and they started seeing the cholesterol, the acne, the hirsutism. They started seeing the blood pressure and these big profiles with the obesity and they started to get a bit of a different syndromes.

Steve:

But it’s interesting because the at least we would see a lot of PCOS patients in your clinic. I mean, how do you address it? I mean, it’s a massive lifestyle shift. There’s herbs. What would you do to someone with PCOS?

Elizma:

Like you mentioned, the diet is a big one, right? Even things like dairy, it stimulates insulin growth factor. And so, there’s a lot of dietary changes that can be made, and then of course, we want to look at blood sugar regulation. Lots of nutrients can be used there. Magnesium, zinc, taurine are all nutrients that help with the insulin sensitivity. And then, I usually get their hormones checked. I usually get something like a DUTCH test done, and also combined with blood testing. We mentioned that in last week’s podcast. Yes.

Steve:

I remember that.

Elizma:

The magic of television. [crosstalk 00:12:54].

Steve:

We’re all wearing the same clothes from last week too. That’s very good too.

Elizma:

I know. Your glasses are in the same spot.

Steve:

Same spot. Same sun tans.

Elizma:

Strange.

Steve:

Crazy stuff.

Matt:

You’re observant Steve, I totally forgot. How did you remember that? [crosstalk 00:13:12]. He remembers.

Steve:

Pure skill, pure skill.

Matt:

You do a lot of lifestyle stuff when you got to manage it, because you realize you’re not just doing hormones.

Elizma:

That’s right. You combine the testing, you do blood tests and something like urine testing because on urine tests, they don’t measure sex hormone binding globulin. Right? And they don’t measure the FSH, and the LH.

Matt:

And dihydrotestosterone, isn’t it? That’s a big one with this stuff, because with the polycystic ovarian syndrome, that testosterone converts to dihydro, and it’s the dihydrotestosterone that has a massive problem with acne, and it’s dihydro that does the hirsutum. It’s the one that does the visceral adiposity, it does that mood changes and the aggression, all that stuff. But it’s hard to measure because it’s happening inside cells.

Elizma:

That’s right. I think it’s about five times.

Steve:

Five times more potent than free testosterone, so it’s very potent.

Matt:

It’s actually more. that’s cool man. I don’t know.

Steve:

Incredible because medically, they’re now prescribing Metformin, which is a drug used to treat diabetics. It reduces insulin. That’s the treatment. That’s the angle the medicine goes to treat PCOS. They give clomiphene if they want to ovulate the woman to get her to ovulate to have babies, because PCOS is a scary thing.

Matt:

That’s where the cysts is, isn’t it? Yeah. The egg hasn’t matured. In the first half of the menstrual cycle, it’s this little follicle that’s inside the sac thing. And then as it develops, it moves to the edge. And then it’s actually when the follicle stimulating hormone drops and the luteinizing hormone spikes and there’s eggs supposed to pop off. If the egg doesn’t pop off, it stays there, and that’s what a cyst is. And then you hear some cases, I get these scans, they got multiple cysts, but then you get others where they just get this one big mother that just keeps growing in cycle. This cyst on the edge is just this egg and that can cause a lot of problems sometime. And also too, it just screws over the cycle because you need these milestone events to happen to be able to move to the next cycle.

Somebody would be just stuck in this first half of the cycle. Now what I was going to say before is, with the naturopath stuff, they teach you to try to profile the body shape. The frustrating thing with PCOS is they will often manifest with an estrogen dominant looking body shape, but they do the bloods, and it’s all test. It’s all androgens and testosterone. You can even have a look at this symptom picture. It’s all androgens, and testosterone. They don’t have any of these symptoms of this estrogen dominance that their body shape has. But then it starts to make sense now with what we know, within the ovaries and internally, they’ve got it. It’s right in the visceral compartments, and everywhere. We got a lot of blood flow and a lot of nerve innovation. They’re really dominant in testosterone with no estrogen.

What happens is a negative feedback goes to the brain saying this person needs more estrogen, we do know that the fat cells on the hips are capable of converting testosterone to estrogen, so they become the estrogen reservoir. The problem is, is they don’t give it back up to the blood supply and very little of that estrogen get back to the pituitary gland. You get stuck in a vicious cycle. There’s a lot of women out there, that are being told I’ve got this androgen disorder, but sitting there thinking what the hell is the goal with the saddlebags and the butt, that stuff? But that’s an estrogen reservoir that the body is holding on to.

What’s really weird about it, if you fix the androgen excess, the bum shrinks. As you actually change the androgen buildup in the visceral compartment and ovaries and block androgen receptors or treat androgens, you can actually through negative feedback, the cellulite and the estrogen dominant fat tissue can reduce. This is where I believe a lot of people have got confused with DIM, because no one was measuring. People were going through looking at these body shape of estrogen dominance. The fat tissue on the hips and also the breast. The breast is also an estrogen reservoir, so they would get manifest symptoms coming into their menstrual cycle that may resemble estrogen dominance in the fibrocystic breast tissue or breast swelling and that stuff. And they’ll also have the same thing on the hips, in which their practitioner or the therapist or the store owner perceives to be an estrogen dominance because of what we know about the body shape from estrogen.

However, when they give them DIM, it’s actually working in around the ovaries to block androgens. Now DIM is really good for androgen excess. Ovarian Syndrome and prostate problems. That’s what women typically, not the prostate problems, but you’ll find that-

Steve:

Not typically.

Matt:

No, you won’t find it even if [crosstalk 00:17:45]. DIM can treat the androgen problem in the ovaries, and by default, or by accident or coincidence or secondary effects, they will see changes on the estrogen dominance symptoms, but that’s why its anti androgen effects, not its anti estrogen effects. I say that over and over again, because this confusion of the world is prescribing DIM as an anti estrogen, we have all these papers stating it is the most potent anti androgen we’ve ever known. And then when I really quiz these people, because I’m genuinely concerned, I don’t believe anything is ever settled, which is why I keep looking. We keep looking for these things. It just keeps confirming the same suspicion.

But when I speak to the people that believe adamantly the opposite, none of that was done through any scientific methodology. None of it was done through testing. It was done by looking at skin folds or body shape changes, which are assumed to be associated with estrogen. But it was indirectly. Does that make sense?

Elizma:

It does. You mentioned at one point now, that some of the studies have shown that what DIM does do is shift estrogen metabolism away from 16-hydroxy estrogen, but more towards the 4-Hydroxy estrogen. That could also be the reason, because I know that DIM is often used for things like fibroids, uterine fibroids, and if you [crosstalk 00:19:07]. Yeah. And also 16-Hydroxy estrogen is proliferative estrogen, right? Of course, if it shifts away from 16-Hydroxy estrogen, you are going to get an improvement in the growth stuff, right? That’s maybe why it’s working for something like fibroids, not necessarily in reducing estrogen, but maybe reducing that proliferative 16-Hydroxy estrogen.

Matt:

Yeah, yeah. You’ll see all these things are going to be totally linked, and you can’t affect one system without a negative feedback affecting the others. That’s why it’s important to have strategy when you create a protocol. Ideally, that’s why it’s cool to do other forms of testing in this stuff as well. Otherwise, you’re just confirming your own bias. I remember there was a naturopath once I got in trouble in my local area. He invented a machine he could put blood under it. And then he put your blood under it. If a red light comes up, it means you may be either have or one day will get leukemia and die. But he could do this other thing to your blood under the microscope, which would make a green light come up, and that would actually remove it. And then because those people didn’t actually get those diseases, he went on believing that he was curing people of leukemia his whole life. He just had a button with a red and a green light.

Steve:

That’s a great scam. Isn’t it? I didn’t think of that.

Matt:

[crosstalk 00:20:23]. What’s the prognosis?

Steve:

[crosstalk 00:20:28]. It’s quite incredible because you talk about the similarities between testosterone. Yes, remember, there’s only one chemical difference between them which is aromatization. They’re pretty similar. Guys and girls are pretty similar.

Matt:

Yes. One little tag. The molecule looks exactly the same and just one little tag.

Steve:

On little tag.

Matt:

Spin out when you see the molecules have apparently the hormonal treatments. [crosstalk 00:20:54]. They say oh, this is the natural. This is our bio identical estrogens or something. Or this is our HRT I’m referring to. Nothing at the molecular. When you see close to testosterone and estrogen stuff is compared to these chemicals that are coming in, how could you say that? Maybe you say it’s the same, [crosstalk 00:21:12].

Steve:

And then we’ve just picked a bit on testosterone about how it can be a problem with PCOS. But a lot of women these days, especially reproductive age and older women are on oral contraceptive pills or the pill. That of course increases sex hormone binding globulin, which is a result suppressing testosterone. They have a lower testosterone for most of their life and even into menopause when they take HRT. You get a drop of testosterone a lot too. That can be a problem too, and that manifests.

Matt:

We talked about that twos and sixteens, and fours. That’s another thing I’ve noticed with a lot of people that do hormonal treatments, or oral contraceptive pills, different forms HRTs. It seems to manifest an increase in the 16 to the two. But what it does is it keeps a cap on the hormone load. And when they come off these oral contraceptive pills or something like that, those ratios are still out of whack, but there’s nothing keeping the levels low. They can really surge which is why a lot of people when they come off these hormonal treatments, they significantly get worse, unless we can go and reboot. The theory with reason why people think DIM was a good anti estrogen was all based on research from a thing called indole-3-carbinol.

Indole-3-carbinol is very unstable. It’s basically the sulfur smell you get from broccoli. As you’re chewing and breaking down the broccoli, it’s releasing that sulfurous compounds. As it’s releasing sulfurous compounds, they’re interacting with the cytochrome P450 enzymes and increasing the pathways that make the two and reduce the ones that make the 16. The end result of that is it gets broken down and a derivative of it is DIM. Then they’ve just gone through and said well, DIM should do the same. But it doesn’t and all the studies show it doesn’t. It’s just got a lot of other really powerful effects because it’s so much more stable.

We can go through the body and block androgen receptors and activate estrogen receptors and everything like that. It’s really important to understand that stuff. You mentioned before Steve, Metformin has become this big drug now to target testosterone, excess disorders in women and it works apparently through insulin. We know it’s got a lot of work on the gut microbiome. You referenced sex hormone binding globulin? What does it do there, Steve?

Steve:

Sure. Well, equines in the gut is a beneficial thing for the gut and Metformin is designed to increase equines in the gut.

Matt:

So cool. [crosstalk 00:23:36] that does the fat loss and insulin sensitivity and everything greatly associated with exercise and everything.

Steve:

It also sensitizes GLUT2 to transport. It’s not GLUT4, but GLUT2, so it allows sugar to go in your liver, so the liver-

Matt:

What’s the difference in GLUT2 and GLUT4?

Steve:

GLUT4 is in the muscle, GLUT2 is in the liver. If you can get sugar in the liver, the liver stops making sugar and therefore the insulin levels go down.

Matt:

That’s really interesting.

Steve:

That’s how Metformin, which comes from goat rue, by the way.

Matt:

That’s why it’s really good for fasting blood sugar because the fasting blood sugar is when the liver is basically measuring and can’t find any bloody sugar anywhere.

Steve:

That’s right.

Matt:

It’s just going in, and it’s going to pump some out.

Steve:

Yeah. Metformin is your anti insulin drug. It’s used for type two diabetes as well.

Matt:

It increases sex hormone binding globulin?

Steve:

It does increase sex hormone-

Matt:

Binds to the testosterone and deactivates it.

Steve:

Correct.

Matt:

You don’t have that free testosterone roaming around having testosterone effect or being capable of being converted to the dihydros in that?

Steve:

That’s correct. And so, it’s a good drug of choice. Berberine you mentioned in this podcast, and the last one. They’re always a bit confusing, but that one is great for increasing equines and having a very similar [crosstalk 00:24:41].

Matt:

Yeah, it’s cool. There’s a natural compound that’s been shown to work very similar to that Metformin. Berberine isn’t a herb itself. It’s a compound. It’s a bright yellow stuff.

Steve:

Tastes great.

Matt:

Tastes like bile and it sticks to your tongue, like shit sticks to a blanket. That stuff is horrible. But it’s found in things like goldenseal, Oregon grape, which is Berberine aquifolium, I think.

Elizma:

Goldenrod also has it.

Matt:

It’s bright yellow. A lot of those liverish. It tastes like bile too. That doctrine of signatures. It’s just like, man, this has got to be good for bile because [crosstalk 00:25:15]. It’s really good in killing off the microbes and the candida and that stuff. It’s got some really cool functions. It is a common ingredient in many herbs.

Steve:

Yeah, very much.

Matt:

But yeah, that’s cool, man.

Steve:

It’s funny because we talk about the excess of testosterone in women, and then you come out with papers like this saying, how do you prescribe testosterone engines for women too? There’s so many benefits for giving women testosterone as well, which it all comes down to, as you’ve both correctly pointed out, it’s about the ratios. We know that women that have lower testosterone have a massive side effects for certain diseases as well, and one of them is migraines.

Matt:

Yeah, yeah. Tell us about that. I found that really interesting. That’s one new thing I’ve really learned today.

Steve:

Yeah. Well, it is an interesting one because migraines happened about three times more in women than men. It’s why? It’s one of the reasons they thought of, was because they’ve got less testosterone than men. Because men as we age, get more migraines as we age and that was attributed to dropping testosterone as men age. They did an experiment, and they gave women with chronic migraines a little pellet of testosterone, which is, they put them under the bus up there. It releases testosterone over three months, and they got a 92% effective rate treatment. You got to remember, eletriptan, which is probably the best triptan, which is the anti migraine medication, is about 40 to 50% effective. Ketorolac is another drug use for migraines that’s about 40 to 50%, so they combine them.

Matt:

Wow. Imagine if we made a product and tested it to be 40% effective and released it. They going to be, “You’re a scammer.”

Steve:

Well, this was published, of course, in [Metaurus 00:26:50] which is a great paper. It was published in about 2012. I don’t know why there hasn’t been too much more work on that. Now, there probably is problems for giving women testosterone. Men tolerate vastly more testosterone than women do, so you got to be a little bit careful with that. But if you’ve got chronic migraines that are debilitating, I mean, that’s a possible option. That’s a medical option, but it’s a proof of concept. It means testosterone has a great effect on migraines.

Matt:

The naturopathic philosophy around that previously was that we knew that estrogen dominance and 16a-Hydroxyestrone in particular, were associated with migraines. This is again, going back to the fact we talked about ratios being more important than amounts. Sometimes it might be easier to top out the testosterone with the pellet than to find your cause of your estrogen dominance. Because anything that increases the specific cytochrome P450s, that will create that 16 such as plastics, pesticides, BPA, these things we call xenoestrogens that are environmental things that have an estrogen like effect, endocrine disrupting chemicals, you can google all these things and get a list.

These things will all interact with your body, but your body is designed to handle poisons, venom and all that stuff. It doesn’t wait to see if it’s plastic water bottle or whatever, or whether it’s a poison, so it has to change its detoxification pathways to deal with this toxic exposure. The problem is, our survival systems are designed to handle the stress and then confirm that system as it worked, because you’re still alive, do that again next time. And these enzyme systems stay fast until we come in and slow the things back down again, or sometimes manage them with antioxidants regularly slowing them down. Which is why we’re seeing things like green teas and turmerics, and other antioxidants turning up in protocols for hormones, and targeting a lot of these conditions.

It’s through the antioxidant mechanisms and that stuff. Having those toxic exposure increases certain pathways that creates, that drags your endogenous chemicals down the wrong pathway, and convert them into a form that is not efficiently detoxified or cleared out. They’re still biologically active contributing to problems.

Elizma:

And also, all those chemical exposures and all of that creates oxidative stress in the body, which then causes LDL cholesterol, which is responsible for making these hormones, such as testosterone and oxidizing it. Then you end up with oxidized [crosstalk 00:29:21].

Matt:

No, no. I was just thinking that, because we talked about the cholesterol before. It was saying why is it… When they measure your cholesterol and they show you LDL levels, they can’t tell if it’s oxidized or not. Can they? They just look at it and say… I’ll tell you what. If you see LDL cholesterol under the microscope, it’s so smooth, and round and lubricated and flexible. It’s supposed to travel through all these different places that are smaller than it. When they’ve oxidized, have you seen them when they oxidize? They start looking like a porcupine. They get all spiky.

And then what happens is they’re all long and spiky, and they’re sticky. And then they hit a little thing and it sticks to it. And then the immune cells look at this cholesterol going, man, I’ve seen bugs and viruses that look like that. And then they get thin, and so then they engulf it, and then try to take it out of the blood vessel saying it’s a virus and then cover themselves in calcium. And that’s what makes the foam cells that causes the blocks. But the big point that is in here, if we’re getting a lot of oxidative stress, your cholesterol is damaged. That cholesterol can’t be used as a building block to make hormones.

As we age, we’re getting towards our menopause and stuff like that. Our ovaries and everything are not making anywhere near as much hormones, especially mine right now. And then my adrenal glands are going to take over. Our adrenal glands are dealing with stress pumping all that cortisol down to cortisol, because cortisol needs to take control of the inflammation and all the other stress associated with the toxin. Your cholesterol is damaged, possibly, less building blocks to make the hormones and then what’s left is going into making stress.

Steve:

It’s a bad picture as you age and we’ve got to fight that because we all want to be, what we call straighten the health curve. Not only a lifespan, but our health span. We want to die healthy, weirdly. We want to get to 85 or whatever age it is, and then just stop. We don’t want to decay. When you get oxidized LDL, we get the foam cells and you’re on statins, which make you very tired, because it depletes CoQ10. Your lifestyle just goes downhill.

Matt:

If we think about that, Steve though, that cholesterol, the fate of cholesterol, if you’re stressed, or manifesting stress or stress posture or inflamed, and doing alo of stuff, so you’ve got all of that. Your cholesterol has the opportunity to either make hormones when your hormones are deficient, vitamin D when that’s low, whatever else cholesterol does. CoQ10 and all that stuff. It has the opportunity to do all that stuff, or it has the opportunity to get damaged, oxidized and cause plaque in your arteries that potentially will kill you. The problem is the link we’re also seeing is as we age, our hormones are dropping, our inflammation and oxidative stress coming out. That’s why we get the cardiovascular disease and stuff as we age.

Again, it’s a matter of going back going, I don’t need to add more hormone. That’s just going to backlog more things or whatever. I need to manage my body. I need to manage my lifestyle, I need to make sure I’m sleeping, I need to make sure my posture is good, that I’m training. I need to make sure that I have an anti inflammatory compounds, or running through the diet. I need antioxidants because if I can’t control that cascade of events, that’s changing my body’s priorities to be short term survival for long term maintenance and repair, you’re never going to fix your hormones.

Other things that we have to mention here before I forget is zinc. I just can’t get over how important zinc is for this whole cascade. Every hormonal cascade. We mentioned zinc through the thyroid one, how many bloody times? Is every step of the thyroid hormonal cascade, well, guess what? It’s every bloody step of this other cascade as well. Because if you got a zinc deficiency, luteinizing hormone, follicle stimulating hormone, are zinc dependent, as is all the other structure. We need to make sure we got that stable state of nutrition to be able to be capable of doing all this stuff, which, weirdly enough is cholesterol, as a building block, and then such things as zinc to get the signals working. The thought that zinc has such an amazing effect, regulating antioxidants and immune involved in inflammatory reactions, it’s [crosstalk 00:33:29].

Steve:

It’s amazing. You go ahead.

Elizma:

Thanks, Steve. No. I was just going to mention, because we’ve talked about high testosterone syndromes in females. But I wanted to also mention that there’s other effects of high testosterone in women as well, especially with mood changes and behavioral changes. Because we know that testosterone can bind to androgen receptors in the brain. I think it’s the hypothalamic area that it can bind to, and where it can stimulate dopamine release and things like that. And so, what I’ve seen in women with too much testosterone is they’ll tend to have very high libido, a very high sex drive, and also you can sometimes see patterns of manic depression sometimes. Not in all women with high testosterone, but they can get these-

Matt:

That’s what dopamine does.

Elizma:

That’s what dopamine does.

Matt:

Dopamine is reward, pride, self esteem. [crosstalk 00:34:25].

Elizma:

That addictive behavior. Yeah.

Matt:

When it’s in excess, we’re looking at ICD [crosstalk 00:34:30], addictions, and cravings, and that requirement to get it.

Elizma:

And then when it drops, you get the depression. You get potentially a lot more mood swings as well.

Matt:

And dihydrotestosterone. That testosterone is being converted to dihydrotestosterone, that’s even more powerful.

Elizma:

Aggression. Yeah.

Matt:

Especially with aggression and that really unreasonable anger. You know that road rage, where you follow people home and shit? That stuff.

Steve:

Wow, scary. You guys have talked about the metabolites of testosterone before, but did you know that metabolites of testosterone, tell your fat cells where to put fat on your body?

Matt:

What?

Steve:

Yeah, I know. Amazing. Great study released recently, it’s titled and this pretty much tells it all. Testosterone metabolize differentially regulate obesogenics and fat distribution.

Matt:

It does so.

Steve:

It’s pretty cool. When you’ve got [crosstalk 00:35:23].

Matt:

What are the spots? Tell us?

Steve:

Well, with women, it’s the butt and the thighs and [crosstalk 00:35:29].

Matt:

Why would you say with women?

Steve:

Because I’m going to go-

Matt:

Let’s talk hormones.

Steve:

Hormones.

Matt:

Estrogen or?

Steve:

Estrogen.

Matt:

I’m so confused. I’m so nervous.

Steve:

I know.

Matt:

Tell us, Steve.

Steve:

I said women, didn’t I? If women have too much testosterone, they build up visceral fat. Oh yes. Visceral fat sits under the organs here and then become thicker around the waist here. That’s what you don’t want. That’s a very dangerous-

Matt:

That’s testosterone.

Steve:

That’s testosterone. Women who come here often have an hourglass figure, and they get a figure like mine, which is just their waist to hip ratio becomes one to one.

Matt:

What’s the phrase we hear in the clinic all the time, when they get around menopause? I’ve lost my butt and gained a belly.

Steve:

Yeah.

Matt:

That’s a classic sign come around the perimenopause where the estrogens dropping off, but the androgens have remained. And so that relative change.

Steve:

Yes, exactly. The estrogen gives you the boobs, and the butt, and the testosterone gives you the flatness, which is unfortunate for a woman. For a man, it’s a bit different, of course. Testosterone, our body loves it. For body composition point of view, we put muscle mass on, and women-

Matt:

It depends, hey. Because I mean, if you’ve got that adiposity as a male and the testosterone surge, the fat tissues have the aromatize enzymes that will convert, and so that body composition that you could have acquired by just through lifestyle stuff, you can actually make it really hard to change that, because the fat tissue, if you consider that fat tissue is not a storage site for excess, it is a functioning endocrine gland because it’s capable of pumping out all of these chemicals called adipokines. Google adipokines, and you’ll get a list of them all, and they include hormones.

Steve:

They do.

Matt:

Once you get an organ, that might go from what should be around 20%, 25% of your body weight through to 40%, 50%, 60% of your body weight, you need to resolve that organ issue, before you think you can just manipulate ovaries and stuff.

Steve:

A classic example of that is a very obese woman who’s trying to fall pregnant, and she struggles to because her fat cells are making too much estrogen. It’s like being on the contraceptive pill.

Matt:

Yeah. But I tell you this, there’s another thing. I mean, when we talk about this obesity, and there’s no healthy fat, we’re not avocados, and that stuff. The visceral fat, but this is a very important thing. There are some of the healthiest women in the world have got big butts. It’s really important to understand the low visceral fat. The visceral fat in around the internal organs, that’s the one that’s contributing the fat to the bloodstream, it’s contributing to blood pressure, insulin resistance, everything. The fat that’s sitting on the hips, it contributes all. The reality is subcutaneous fat on the hips of women is so hard to get rid of, because it’s contributing so little to the bloodstream.

There is a lot of studies that show the women that had the largest subcutaneous fat, as long as they got the low visceral fat, they’re actually healthier because they do have a source of hormones that can be anti inflammatory. Don’t forget, estrogen is extremely important as an anabolic agent for muscle and bone and maintaining cardiovascular disease and everything. The theory, remember the HCG diet stuff? There’s a theory that cellulite or the fat there is kept there for when women are starving during pregnancy. They recreated that by putting them on a 500 calorie diet and giving them HCG to say that it was going. It didn’t really work that way. But that was an interesting theory.

It’s important to understand that, we’re not just saying that everyone’s got to be at a certain very lean body fat percentage to be healthy. It’s to do with where it is, and it’s mainly getting rid of this visceral fat. That actual extra bit of fat subcutaneous, it’s not such a bad thing in women.

Steve:

The visceral fat comes a lot from the insulin because the insulin drives the testosterone in women, so getting rid of insulin. You got to exercise before breakfast to get the insulin levels down, eat a lower carbohydrate diet. This is a lifestyle that you promote in your clinic with woman with PCOS, and that thing. Another thing is that the testosterone is associated with insulin resistance in women. In men, if they get testosterone, and they’ve got type two diabetes, it can actually reverse it.

Matt:

Yeah, wow.

Steve:

Yeah. It does two different things in men and women. This is a two year control trial.

Matt:

Sorry, Steve. Did you say testosterone creates insulin resistance in women?

Steve:

It’s associated with it.

Matt:

But we know that it comes from it.

Steve:

Yeah. It’s associated with it. It’s not caused by it, because insulin drives the ovaries to make testosterone so you can associate the both. But they’re not causative. In testosterone, in women actually has some slight beneficial effects on their composition, as long as it doesn’t get metabolized incorrectly. That’s why a lot of… You see the bodybuilders, they go on to testosterone in a lot of women and then yes, it changes them and we can argue about whether that’s bad, but their composition improves.

Matt:

Yeah, absolutely.

Steve:

Their muscle mass.

Matt:

Yeah. I’m weird, and my personal voice about this is very different to a lot of people in the sense that I find it really strange that the medical world has these. The tools they’re using are part of the medical world. It really spins me out, how key in the medical world would be to put someone on statins, or Metformin, or something like that. Or treatments for obesity and cardiovascular disease. They want to get that in early or they will make people wait until they get to that point. They say, you’re not quite ready to get that prescription yet. You’re not quite sick enough. Just wait. You’re on your way. As opposed to saying, “Hey, look. There’s a lot of stuff we’ve learned from bodybuilders and physique people, and other coaches that use our medical treatments differently.”

We can actually use our thyroid medication, our hormone medication or other medications to actually modify your body shape and support your body composition changes. Support your weight loss and your muscle gain, so we don’t have to put you on stuff for diabetes and cardiovascular disease. But it’s really weird that they will actually attack a bodybuilder or a physique athlete. That will have a crack at them. These people are finely tuned athletes so we can have guys that are 50s and stuff, either, they’re just looking amazing, and they’re finely tuned athlete. Their bloods are excellent.

Steve:

You’re talking about me, aren’t you?

Matt:

No. I wasn’t actually. But yo can pretend I was. Yes, I was Steve. I should have lied. Yes, Steve.

Steve:

That’s a lie.

Matt:

But you see what I mean? For me, I’ve always been like, man, if you can use these things to actually prevent disease and maintain an amazing quality of life, and even achieve other things and goals that you want, I don’t see the problem with that. As opposed to allowing people to be obese and fat and getting sicker and sicker. Fatigue, soreness, I can’t train, I’ve got this injury, I can’t recover, blah, blah. All these things, and then hopefully, you get fat enough where I can diagnose you with some disease that I can prescribe a drug for cardiovascular or blood sugar.

Steve:

Just get lap band surgery or something like that.

Matt:

Yeah, I just can’t understand why they don’t. And then same thing. They won’t even let us measure our thyroid hormones properly to see how our metabolism is doing as part of our fat loss campaign. I’ll go in and show that, and guaranteed, they’re going to cut my calories. Fair chance is that I’d like to maintain that or measure that. Well, we’ll be watching your TSH. I asked the doctor the other day, I said, “Well, can you measure my zinc at the same time? Did you know TSH is zinc dependent.” And he just said, I do not care what you say.

Steve:

I mean, one of the obesity treatments is things like orlistat, which stops the absorption of fats in the body. Lipase inhibitors and the other ones of course, is amphetamines, which cause [crosstalk 00:43:23].

Matt:

They’ll prescribe that stuff, but they won’t do hormonal stuff, which we know can change body composition and do amazing things. I can’t understand that.

Elizma:

I mean, I know we’re talking about women, but I had a client not too long ago, who had tanked testosterone levels. We tested, it was tanked, and yet, the doctor still wouldn’t prescribe testosterone for him, and I just, I was like, well-

Matt:

Isn’t it weird?

Steve:

Testosterone confuses me. I mean, because women get hormones when they fit fertile and hormones when they’re not. Men, we’re low in testosterone, oh, we can’t do that.

Matt:

Yeah. They’ll give an oral contraceptive pill for reasons outside of contraception to reduce those. It’s almost one of those things where you’re of that age, we should probably put on that.

Elizma:

Yeah. Just like with women, they’re very happy to prescribe hormones for women, but when it comes to men-

Matt:

But even when we go with the same women, we want to talk to the doctors about thyroids and testosterone, it’s like, “Hang on. We don’t have an oral contraceptive pill of that. This is what we have to give them.” When it comes to women and doctors, you’re either going to replace the hormone or remove the part.

Steve:

What are the treatments used? You talked about contraceptive pills, there’s different types now, of course. There’s third and fourth generations ones, which specifically suppress testosterone like Diane-35, that are specifically prescribed to drive testosterone down in women. Now my thinking is, why is it so high in women? I don’t know why that’s not asked more biomedicine. “I got high testosterone?” “Oh, well, we’ll just give you some Diane-35. To me, it’s what are you doing? We know about insulin driving it up, we know about what’s causing it. That’s my opinion should be addressed before you give a pill for that.

Matt:

It’s manage the symptoms. I don’t mind people using either natural or pharmaceutical stuff to manage things, but there’s no place for that in chronic health care prevention and treatment. You got to work towards the holistic stuff that created the problem. I don’t mind managing stuff, as long as you’re still targeting the cause. But I think it’s silly just to say you, “You’re young. We’re going to put you on this now and then just stay on it.” Because the problem is, as they come off, they get married, and then come off, want to have babies and all that stuff, and then you have just delayed the inevitable.

Elizma:

That’s right.

Matt:

Don’t start talking about pheromones and everything. Have you heard all that? I wonder. We have to look into this more. You know pheromones? That’s our attraction. But it’s related to cytokines and immune cells. Yeah. You have multiple different things that manipulate the pheromones that regulate your attraction to the partner, especially immune stuff. There’s a lot of interactions with them. You want the opposite immune system to breed with because it’s actually going to make it better. But what I’ve discovered is with oral contraceptive pills, I shouldn’t say what they discovered. This is something I should research it more and just definitely get some proper references. But otherwise, all the scientists out there, I’m sure they will, and they can provide the references to me, but as the oral contraceptive pills alters the cytokines and alters hormones, it actually alters the pheromones.

Therefore, the pheromones are altered there, which means what you’re attracted to would be different. When you’re on the pill, and you find your perfect partner, and you’ve got this animal instinct attraction, and then you decide to get married, and then come off the pill and have babies, your pheromones change. Your attraction can change. Is that ultimately the right person for you to be with because the combination of the immune profile, everything’s going to change. All of a sudden it may not be that compatible match that it was when you were hormonally modified.

Elizma:

Wow.

Steve:

Wow. That’s-

Matt:

[crosstalk 00:47:10]. There are people out there right now going, “Oh, shit. I’ve just gotten off the pill to have a baby. Nothing’s working out, and I don’t like this guy anymore.” They’re going to go back, well, Matt said this, and I’ve actually had a guy come into my clinic wanting to murder me over that one. That one opinion one day. They’re not together anymore. I’m now married to her. No, that’s not true. Delete that bit. I don’t even know that would. Just delete that. We never got married. It’s just a weird thing. No, delete all that. It was a man. No, delete that too. Just to double down, anyway.

Steve:

We’ve talked about-

Matt:

All stuff. Haven’t we Steve? [crosstalk 00:47:48]. No idea what will end up on the podcast.

Steve:

Testosterone in women, it’s good and bad, and we need the right amount of it. It’s great if it’s in the right amount. Too much of it. We know it causes massive problems, and that’s the most common thing in women. Is they have too much testosterone.

Matt:

And ratios. You can’t separate any part of the body. Nothing in our body happens in isolation. Everything interacts and with hormones, ratios are so much more important.

Steve:

That’s scary, because at age 51, on average for a woman is they stop ovulating, and therefore the egg is the thing that produces most of the progesterone. We haven’t talked a lot about that as an androgen, but that drops dramatically postmenopausal.

Matt:

Should we do that? Should we do a podcast on progesterone?

Elizma:

I think we should do.

Matt:

It’s really good, because I love progesterone. It is really interesting, and it’s really quite confusing too. Not confusing in the sense that there’s a lot of data coming out. I didn’t know progesterone can convert directly to dihydrotestosterone and create acne. You can get these people that you get to build up their progesterone and all of a sudden, it’s just driving acne through DHT. Not even going through the testosterone pathway. [crosstalk 00:48:57].

Steve:

I only accidentally learned that yesterday.

Matt:

Did you?

Steve:

Yeah. The paper you’re talking to me about. When I went “Oh, cool.”

Matt:

I worked it out when… Vitex. Vitex is a herb that we used. It’s most famous for increasing progesterone. 90% of the time it fixes people’s acne, and also their menstrual cycle. On the rare occasion that it makes it worse. It’s associated with a progesterone to DHT. Guess what? Zinc deficiency. It goes back to zinc deficiency again. How important is Zinc?

Steve:

It’s just crazy. I mean, everyone takes it in winter for colds and flus, and everyone takes it for their hormones as we’ve talked about, but it’s just everywhere. Zinc is one of those scary things that, men and women need a lot of. We need more of it, of course, because we lose more of it.

Matt:

The only warning I’d have to give people in regards to it is just watch it if you tend to be anemic and that stuff. Zinc will bind to iron and inhibit iron absorption.

Steve:

It’s contraindicated in for doses above 60 milligrams for people with Alzheimer’s disease because [crosstalk 00:50:00].

Matt:

I vomit all over the place at 20 milligrams. I did that test. [crosstalk 00:50:07]. I forgot. I was sipping on it, I just had zinc. I was trying to see how much I could tolerate. I was just sipping on it. I’m just in the middle of a conversation and my concentration span. For everyone out there, I really apologize for talking over everyone and interrupting. It’s purely my short term memory. If I don’t say it immediately, and you’ve noticed even halfway through a sentence, I forget what I’m talking about. I get so excited, and then I talk over everyone. And then I write down what you were saying, so we can come back to it because I forget what I was going to say. It’s a bad habit of mine. I do it to everyone.

Steve:

It shows passion. That’s all. It shows, oh, if you’re sitting here going, “Oh, it’s my turn to speak.” [crosstalk 00:50:47].

Matt:

I forget. These things are all overlapping. If I let someone speak all the way through the biochemical cascade, we miss these points in here. I try not to over talk. I try to interrupt and make it relevant, but it’s pretty exciting, and it’s hard. It’s so complicated. We’ve got so many biochemical. Everything’s mind maps in the body. Nothing’s linear, so it’s really hard to say I’m going to talk through a process here. That just has a start and a finish. Because there’s nothing in the body, has a start and a finish. Nothing in science has a start and a finish. You’re allowed to do. I know you guys know I do it, but I give you guys all the same papers and then expect… I get totally different interpretations when the paper’s back. That’s what science is. It’s actually, here’s the data, it’s your interpretation of the data that makes it amazing.

Elizma:

And also, we see different things depending on our backgrounds. Because you can’t ever remember everything in a paper, so different things will stand out for me than it would stand out for Steve.

Matt:

That’s why it’s also so important to listen to people’s observations, and have any training, because they’re not biased. Someone says, “When I see this, this happens. It’s I need to know, thank you. I’ll work out how and why at some stage. Well, that’ll make sense at some stage, but I need to record that data. It’s the same with my wife, or the kids and that stuff. You really have to… I can’t let myself be biased. Just tell me. It’s all collecting data. Don’t try to tell me your theories about how or why. We just want to know what is actually happening. The more data and the more discussion. And then that’s the same thing with philosophy. You can’t even write. Everything’s in a constant state of flux. I think it’s part of it. Ideally, we would love everyone that’s listening to be able to interrupt with questions, and then we’d have the best one.

Steve:

[crosstalk 00:52:35] questions. I got mine. It’s a good one.

Matt:

Did you?

Steve:

Yeah.

Elizma:

Maybe one day we should do a live zoom or something, and if people type in questions.

Matt:

Like a panel thing?

Elizma:

Yeah.

Matt:

Let’s do it. The tech guys just got off.

Steve:

I love how you said about the testosterone thing about women migraines. Examples like why is iron in our blood? It’s because of the supernova that exploded, and we’ve made more iron on earth than anything else.

Matt:

I called it Terry.

Steve:

Terry.

Matt:

That supernova. You remember Terry exploded that time?

Steve:

The big one they called blue sky questions. Why is the sky blue?

Matt:

Why is it blue?

Steve:

Because the blue reflects towards the earth, because it’s a shorter wavelength [crosstalk 00:53:25].

Matt:

If it reflects, it would go back off with the blue space.

Steve:

Yeah. And now of course, when the sun sets, of course, it reflects the blue light, because you get more of an angle, so you get more of the red. That’s why the sunsets are red. I don’t know if anyone knows physics, but-

Matt:

Reflection, refraction. All I know is-

Steve:

One’s towards, the normal one’s away. That physics mathematics.

Matt:

When you’re spearing things, you aim above it.

Steve:

Correct? Because of refraction.

Matt:

It’s actually there.

Steve:

Yeah, it goes to a more dense medium. [crosstalk 00:53:57].

Matt:

The stupid stuff he knows about.

Elizma:

I know.

Steve:

It’s stupid stuff, but someone might be interested.

Matt:

They will be.

Steve:

Maybe. Otherwise [crosstalk 00:54:06].

Matt:

I don’t know.

Steve:

We were talking about the exploding stars yesterday. It was shallow about it, and it’s, because people were wondering why there was a magnetic card on the earth, and that’s because the ions, you’re spinning at 1000 miles an hour, and the earth is full of molten iron because of the friction. And that iron is creating a magnetic current. That’s what causes north and south and that’s what causes our atmosphere to stay there and not be blown off by solar wind, so that we can live here. This is just basic geography and physics. But those thinking and those questions may be out there. They could ask about health.

Matt:

Yeah, bloody earth. Ask us anything. See the shit that he talks about? Anything?

Steve:

Brooklyn loves it. She’s interested in [crosstalk 00:54:53]. She likes science. She does.

Matt:

That’s gone weird. It was that pause. That eye contact and pause. It was like. Let’s finish on that really weird phase.

Steve:

Okay. Women and testosterone. It’s good, bad and ugly, all in the same sense. No, it’s great stuff. I never said we were in rivalry. I said too much testosterone in women is bad. But a little bit is good, and some of it, it’s great. We’ve talked about testosterone in women now and so we know it’s good and bad for women. Yeah, I know. It’s amazing. We need some but not too much. It’s all balanced. We’ve got to get the diet right, get the exercise right. Got to get the herbs right, and we can balance the testosterone, which will boost the health of any woman who requires the more testosterone boosted.

Matt:

Sounded inspiring.

Steve:

Yes.

Elizma:

That’s pretty inspiring.

Matt:

I’ve never wanted to be more of a woman in my life.

Steve:

I’ve had fun today. I’ve got cheeks from laughing which I hope doesn’t make the cut, but Elizma, you’ve been great today again [crosstalk 00:56:05]. Your intro to this podcast was fantastic.

Elizma:

Thanks, Steve,

Steve:

I loved it. [crosstalk 00:56:12].

Matt:

For a woman.

Steve:

[crosstalk 00:56:15] superstar as ever.

Matt:

You’re making it weird now. [crosstalk 00:56:23]. Good night John. Good night, John. You’re just trying to finish [crosstalk 00:56:25]. He’s going through the audience. Sing us a song and then you’re not Australian. Good night, John. Then that weird kid in the crowd. Good night, Johnny.

Steve:

Well, we’re talking about testosterone today. It’s been wonderful. [crosstalk 00:56:41]. We have to. We have to finish this. We have to finish this. They’re saying wrap it up, wrap it up. Do a wrap up. We will wrap up.

Matt:

I finished ages ago.

Steve:

But testosterone for women, it’s very important to get the levels right. We want the ratios right, and we want to get it right. Thanks for listening, guys, and we’ll see you all next week.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening. And remember, question everything. Well, it’s what we say.